After The Pareto Game, which had more than 3000 people playing and discussing the outcomes, we now have another one – The Fishbone Game. To ensure participation from everyone, I need to begin with the basics. In case you have significant expertise in problem solving, please be patient or consider moving directly to “Start Quiz” and “The Game”.
Drawing a fishbone diagram requires asking “Why?” as many times as necessary to try and reach the roots of a problem. Also known as cause and effect diagram, why-why analysis or the five why analysis, this approach is often used to analyze problems systematically. To check the effectiveness of why-why analysis, some experts propose that we should be doing the reverse “therefore” check. Let us try this once with an example. In a company, HR folks were doing why-why analysis for poor selections in a recruitment drive. One cause for fewer than expected selections was poor pass ratio in the mandatory written test. This had happened because the majority of candidates did not write the test. Our why-why analysis looks like this –
- Why were number of selections below expectations?
It was so because very few candidates passed the mandatory test.
- Why was it that very few candidates cleared the written test?
This happened because only 10% of the candidates wrote the mandatory test.
We can continue like this to go deeper and find sub-causes. At the end, we may like to do the “therefore” test which begins at the lowest root (sub-cause) level. The “therefore” statement for this example so far goes like this – Only 10% of candidates wrote the test, therefore, very few students passed the test and therefore, very few were selected. Let us examine this statement. Was writing the test a necessary condition to pass the test? Yes, it was. Was it a sufficient condition to pass the test? No, it was not. If more people had written the test, we do not know if more would have cleared. Possibly, the uninterested or the weaker one’s escaped the test. We are unsure about the cause being right because the condition of writing the test was necessary but not sufficient for passing the test.
Necessary Condition – A condition is necessary if absence of the condition guarantees absence of the effect.
Sufficient Condition – A condition is sufficient if presence of the condition guarantees the presence of the effect.
The real question now is – Is this discussion about the cause (or a set of causes) being necessary and/or sufficient really important? What is its exact role in problem solving?
THE GAME
I hope you have got six out of six in the quiz. Let us bring our focus back on cause and effect analysis. In the following questions, please choose your preferred option and see how it compares with others.
Question 1 – X is an identified cause for Y and Y is a negative undesirable effect. Is the following statement True or False? –
It is possible that X is neither necessary nor sufficient for Y to occur.
or
Question 2 – X is an identified cause for Y and Y is a negative undesirable effect. Is the following statement True or False? –
In the quest to permanently eliminate Y, if X is found to be sufficient for occurrence of Y, we should consider just X as our focus area; X being necessary does not really matter.
or
Question 3 – X is an identified cause for Y and Y is a negative undesirable effect. Is the following statement True or False? –
If X is found to be sufficient for occurrence of Y, it means that X must also be necessary for Y.
or
Question 4 – X is an identified cause for Y and Y is a negative undesirable effect. Is the following statement True or False? –
If X is necessary for Y, this means that the occurrence of Y is sufficient to prove that X has happened.
or
Question 5 – X is an identified cause for Y and Y is a negative undesirable effect. Is the following statement True or False? –
To permanently eliminate Y, the following must happen – We must be able to target and address a set of X’s, which is necessary as well as sufficient for Y to occur.
or
The effective use of Fishbone or the Why-Why analysis depends on the kind of causes we identify or get satisfied with. This tool requires many other techniques in conjunction for solving complex problems. It is important to remember that this tool forms the starting point for many analyses, and we need to begin in the right way. In a complex problem solving sequence like DMAIC, we need to redraw our Why-Why analysis several times. Just as starting right is important, it is crucial to know when to end our cause analyses. Much of it depends on asking the right questions. Necessity and sufficiency form a part of such questions.
To check how your answers compare with mine, please click here. To make a comment, please click here.
- When Design for Six Sigma Fails - September 24, 2015
- The root cause is missing - July 15, 2014
- Process Excellence Vs. Human Psychology - June 11, 2014
helps revisit what you learned couple of years ago.
Thanks Mr. Khatri
Hi Bharat, good to see your participation here. Cheers!
Fascinating – thank you. Good refresher.
Good to see your comment, Peter. Hope to bring many more of this kind.
would like to know ur views Mr. Khatri..thanks for the update
Hi Vrinda, my comments are WIP (work in progress). Shall post soon.
Really Good..
Waiting for your comments for each qustion…
Thanks
Shall be posting soon. Good to see your participation.
Please continue to bring out such great exercises, its a quick refresher and fun!
I do plan to bring these up often. Let us see if I succeed. Thanks for your comment.
That was interesting!!!
I like the three exclamations there. Cheers!
I would like to check my answers against yours. It would also be helpful if an explanation is given in case of deviance.
Regards
Nilanjan Biswas
Hi Nilanjan, I do not have your responses on record. Well, you know them and hopefully they match mine when I post them next week. Cheers!
Good food for thought to challenge our minds to think different permutation and combination of scenarios which are relevant for performing Causal Analysis.
Here is hoping that more thoughts are fed and fed well! Cheers!
Interesting
Appreciated!
Really good…waiting for your comments..!!
Hi Sayema, just a few days, and we can have another interaction. Thanks for participating.
I hould like to check my answers !
Hi Rui, answers are under development and hope we match in our responses. Even if we do not, I invite you to share your views. Cheers!
Hi VK,
Enjoyed knowing more abt paretto and now fish bone which is key in problem solving will help us hone our skills .Looking forward to your responses.
regards
Hema
Thanks, Hema.
I would like to know the answeres.
Tuesday 3 PM is my upper limit. Thanks for joining.
Looking forward to answers…
thanks for the game. Waiting to compare answers
Good to see your comment here. Answers coming up soon (Tuesday 3 PM)
Interesting and helps to brush up early learning on fish bone..
Yes, Mahesh. I have seen people get into a habit of doing the root cause analysis with this tool and stop asking questions on how and whether causes are of the right kind to address the problem.
Let me know the correct answers.
Interesting and helpfulf.
Sorry, helpful. There are moments in our lifes/professions in which this type of exercise give sense and meaning.
Hi Goncalo, thanks for joining and the comment. I look forward to your comment on my responses that come up tomorrow.
Thanks, very interesting & creative. Eager to view your comments against the answers.
Very Interesting. Want to see if my logic matches with ur say.
My answer varies from that of the majority in the first and last questions, but I still feel I am right. Will wait for the email. Cheers!
Very Good game. It will help in identifying the logical inconsistencies in our arguments about root cause. This is a very common problem which I observe and also commit sometimes.
Thanks for your comment Vivek.
Answers please
Looking forward for your reasoning and comparison of answers
Would be good to see the logic you have applied.
Waiting for result
Looking forward to comparing results
good one…It Creates interest
Very good example on how a simple statement is enough to refresh crucial concepts like these. Well done. In spite of being a bit far from 6 Sigma at the moment, this also made me nostalgic about the several projects I led that just started with this Fishbone analysis – no matter how the team is built or what the scope of the project is this is a right start-up to stimulate cooperation and interaction, leveling knowledges, bringing up brainstorming in an organized way!
Waiting for the next examples 😉
Good to see your comment, José.
A great refresher to the concepts learned..
Even though my answers match, would like to compare our logics.
Sure, Navjot. Thanks for the comment.
nice….wana know the explanation of answers
Sahil, answers shall be up in a few days. Thanks for your visit.
great approach towards OPEX….and very help full while applying for problem analysis
Thanks, Harish.
great to see your patience towards your replies.. A good quality required in “OPEX(Operational Excellence)”.
…thank you sir
Good to connect on that, Aditya.
Interesting game.
Thanks Mark
The answers are confusing… waiting for explanations
Hi Dinesh, the answers are not provided yet. What you have seen are just the responses of visitors. Explanations shall be shared soon.
Another fantastic one Vishwadep. Thanks. But the last one apart from the test on ‘Interest’ was redundant. Please feed us regularly on such stuff. This is enlightening. Thanks once again.
Very good initiative. A good refreshment and it keep us alert.
Thanks Jarek.
I agree with the majority answers – though #5 had me doing a ‘double-take’.
I am interested to know how practitioners go about proving ‘x’ characteristics are sufficient and/or necessary.
Thanks for participation, Dean. The answers show percentages based on what people are mentioning, till now. I shall be compiling responses with examples in some time and we shall be able to discuss more.
Fun and refreshing, thank you.
Thanks José
Interesting – would also like to see the distribution of occupations that answered if possible. Thanks.
Hi Mike, thanks for your comment. We have not been capturing any details of respondents. Your comment gets me thinking. Probably, we shall try to add this sometime in future.
Great quiz…
Thanks Jackson.
I found it very interesting and ofcourse wandering after the result which will help me to know the level of my proficiency. It is a great work and I would like to take part in every future game.
Thank you for involving me..
Hi Rajiv, Good to see that you like it. Hopefully, I shall bring up many more.
Very nicely putup…
Thanks Vinay.
I am eager to understand the thinking behind for more clarity and understanding between the necessities and sufficiencies
Thanks for the visit Bhuvana.
A good brain teaser and a training at the same time–
Thanks for the comment and the visit, Janet
Good excersice, Please share your comments
Interesting set of questions
Charles, Hope you like the answers as well that are coming up soon.
A good brain teaser for the latent professionals..
Good that it worked well for you, Habeeb. Thanks for visiting.
Very interesting
Hi Edward, jointly we can explore a lot more in this domain. Thanks for your participation.
Cool, cant wait for answers
Sean, Tuesday is my deadline. Hope I can beat it.
Hi VK,
Thanks for the exercise. Very helpful t keep you in the space of six sigma. Want to check my answers.
Nandini
Hi Nandini, good to see your comment. Responses are WIP right now.
It will be interesting to see your logic specially for question 2 & 3. To get quick success, it might be prudent to focus on “a significant” factor to reduce undesirable effect rather than spending time to identify others. If interations are more prevalent then one has to be careful…….
Keep up the good work.
I am developing answers with examples that can be useful for all. Let us see how it goes for 2 and 3.
Great refresher exercise in logic.
Back to Basics exercise and very helpful.
Good to know I have been of help. Hope you will be there to participate in responses.
Please share the answers.
Hi Sana, answers coming up soon. Cheers!
I love this idea. I think it is very helpful to help process managers understand concepts.
Hi Paula, good if it can clear some cobwebs. Thanks for your participation.
Great excercise, would like to compare answers.
Hi Omar, answers coming up soon.
Great refresher exercise in logic.
Good to see that you liked it.
Although more info is needed to properly answer the questions,
it does make you think and enables you to realize that effect is not always the cause of the
cause.
I shall re-look if some questions need some assumptions. Shall try to cover it in my responses. Thanks for your comment.
excellent reading and test
Boosts me up when I see that you like it.
What a wonderful way to challenge and clean out the cobwebs on a tool that is most commonly used and often times taken at face value.
Deanna, I like your comment. Some of these tools seem so simple but are often misused. Appreciate your participation.
nice game. can’t wait for the results.
Ashok, be there while I am developing examples for the answers. 🙂
Great reminder exercise…
Good to see that you liked it. Cheers!
Awaiting your response and waiting for the answers. Thank you.
Waiting for the answers
Sure, the wait shall not be very long. Answers are under development.
This is an excellent method of revisiting the concepts & strengthening the basics.
I will be looking forward to your responses.
Thanks.
Thanks for your comment, Syed. Responses coming up soon.
used a long back, good refresher. I have taken a little bit long time to answer but sure with relevant practical example, can be replied more accurately & fast.
Excellent questions.
Kuldeep, good to see your response. Cheers!
I would like to know answers.
Hi Anju, good to see you here. Answers coming up soon. Cheers!
It is interesting. Waiting to see the logic behind the answers since I had answers that differ f4rom the mayority in some questions.
Luis, thanks for your comment and as they say, majority is not always right.
Most of my answers seems to match others however would like to know d actuals 😉
Yes, Sujay majority may not always be right. Responses shall be posted soon. Thanks for your comment
reminds me of all these years of practice and logic appilcation in various senarios of work as well as life, and how much we do draw from all these tool that we learn and imbibe along the way… great refresher, way to go Vishwadeep!
Hi Reshma, Appreciate your comment. There is so much more to these simple tools than what most people see. And as you say, applies at work and in life.
This is interesting. Most of my students failed with this logic on their imrpvement project. They were all exited to do an Ishikawa, and for them, just the likehood of something happening makes it valuable as a root cause. this remains me of philo101 course taken years ago: I see a blue cat, I have a cat, therefore it’s blue. (sic) Hopefully your page will still be available next semester for my students.
thanks for you blog.
Oh yes, FMc, this page is likely to be here unless some malicious forces do a sabotage. Logic is taken for granted by most and people spend a lot of time crunching data without sound logic. Truly appreciate your comment.
Please reply with comparison
Harry, answers coming up soon. Thanks for your visit and comment.
Dear Vishwadeep,
Another arrow from your quiver, indeed ,very good practise to learning enhancement . Looking forward to see some other good topic too.
Thanks again and waiting for answers.
Hi Prabhat, your comment makes me think I am an Archer. 🙂
Good to know that you enjoyed it.
good refresher in logic. So how did I score?
Hi Paul, unfortunately we do not record scores individually. My responses coming up soon (by Tuesday) and I invite you to discuss them.
A good test of critical thinking and C&E.
Appreciate your comment, Matt.
Cool stuff 🙂
makes the old brain rattle 🙂
Thanks Rom 🙂 I wonder if the rattling is followed by a whoosh and a placation. 🙂
That was fun…thank you for taking the time to develop the quiz. I look forward to comparing our responses.
Will, good to see that you like it. Answers are under development and should be up by Tuesday.
Great stuff VK. Gets you thinking. Would like to know what your thoughts are on the answers.
Thanks Ravinit.
Great excercise. Knowledge transformed in a game. I like that.
Thanks Roland.
Good one
Thanks. Appreciate your visit.
Want to know the right answers
My responses are under development. Likely to be up by Tuesday.
Would like to know the answers…thanks!
Hi Anupam, just a few more days for responses.
Hi Abhishek, be there. Answers are work in progress.
innovative game
Truly motivating comment from you. Good to see that.
Nice quiz – looking forward to seeing the answers.
Thanks for passing by Ken. Answers coming up soon.
Very thoughtful of you to have created these games. It keeps the network vibrant and alive. Thanks!
Thanks for your comment and participation.
Very good game. Helped to refresh out knowledge…
Would like to know the right answers. Thanks
Pravin, my responses are coming up soon. Hope you agree with what I find as right.
Good ques
Hope you like the answ 🙂
plz share ur answers
Hi Piyush, good to see your comment from IIM Ahmedabad. Answers coming up soon.
Awaiting to see the results.
Joseph, the wait shall not be very long. Just a few days. Thanks for your visit.
Waiting for the reply
Kannan, responses are taking some time but shall post them with examples soon.
Nice game – waiting for reply
Games work well for most people. I hope to keep making more regularly.
It’s interesting to know such facts which are commonly misunderstood/mis-interpreted and hence lead to an incorrect analysis/ forecasting.
Right you are! Varsha, thanks for the comment.
Hello sir, interesting quiz and a good start. Would definitely love to view your opinion in this regard. Thanks
Hi Saba, it is a good start to a long journey on decision making and problem solving.
Waiting for ur answers Sir……..
Hi Bhushan, just a few more days. Working on the responses so that you can have fun while learning from them.
hello,nice game..!!
Hi Harshad, good to see that you liked it.
Very good study..
Thanks
Thanks for your comment.
A good refresher!
Thanks Seena, good to know that you liked it.
Do let me know of anymore of such short yet effective games that I can use as interludes during my sessions in class. Alternatively would you know of websites where I will find interesting class room exercises for six-sigma courses?
Hi Seena, I have not seen such short games elsewhere. Please let me know if you succeed in finding any such source.
Please let me know the correct anwers
Hi Saibal, I am developing answers with examples and shall upload in a few days.
Stimulating … answers please.
Sure, Rishi, answers coming up soon.
intersting let me know the answer.
Hi Dr. Dipti, thanks for participating. I shall be able to share them by tomorrow afternoon. I look forward to your comment on it.
great exercise to revise such concepts, would like to know the answers.
Good to see your response, Rupinder. Answers coming up soon.
Looking forward to your approach towards the above and would like to intervene the same
Sure, Dipti, we can discuss more soon.
Good exercise and is helping to focus on the areas
Good to know that you liked it.
Good one , Let me know the answers.
Answers coming up soon. Good to see your comment.
Interesting, was a refresher of what we learnt long time ago…
Thanks for your visit, Karthik.
Hi Al, answers are brewing and shall be offered soon. 🙂
That was nice refresher. I want to check my answers
Good to see your comment. Answers are coming up soon.
Very interesting to see the # of people selecting true/ false; also statements other than the last one are simple yet can make the analysis deviate if not understood well 🙂 it definitely set me thinking!
Good to see your comment Deepali. I can see you have analyzed these in detail. Cheers! 🙂
Vishwadeep Khatri,
Excellent exercise, review my answers and communicate your comments.
Hi Tarak, Thanks for your comment. I do not have your answers (we do not record individual trace-ability through the website) but my responses coming up soon.
Kindly review my answers and provide your comments
This has really piqued my interest. Looking forward to your answers.
I hope to keep the interest g(r)owing! Cheers!
Great exercise…very helpful to refresh concepts and get new insights… look forward to your response.
Rajshree, thanks for your visit and comment. Responses coming up soon.
Great exercise.
Good that you liked it, Siddhant. Thanks for the comment.
The Quiz and the game made me understand Fish-bone diagram better.
Thanks for your comment. Cheers!
Good one
Good that you like it Theresa. Appreciated.
Good one I like it
I want to compare my comments with yours.
Hi Mahesh, thanks for the participation. My responses shall be posted on Tuesday afternoon.
Very apt revision of the cause and effect topic. Would be expecting the solutions. More grease, Vishwadeep!
Regards,
Okezie
Thanks for joining in, Okezie.
Please share your comments…I’m eager to see your explanation on these questions
Hi Vamsidhar, the comments are being posted. Shall be visible by Tuesday afternoon for further discussion.
Pls share your answers
Hi Deepmala, it is good to see your participation on these posts. My answers shall be visible on Tuesday afternoon for further discussion.
Very interesting , looking fwd to answers
Hi Venkat, I shall be able to share responses by Tuesday afternoon. I look forward to your comments on those.
Interesting logic exercise. I want to compare my answers with yours and consider your explanations for your answers; especially if we disagree.
Sure Ted, answers coming up soon.
Interesting…
Hi Benita, good to see your comment here.
Hi Sir,
Pls. share your review for my answer
Hi Ankush, we do not keep track of individual answers. I shall be posting my responses tomorrow for you to compare and comment.
wating for answers
Hi Manoj, the answers shall be shared tomorrow.
pls provide the correct answers
Hi Subhas, thanks for joining in. Responses shall be uploaded soon (tomorrow).
Pls share the answers
Hi Irfan, please visit tomorrow after 3 PM for answers.
Exciting and refreshing! Reiterates basic principles and the infallible truths in their underlying logic. Thanks. Cheerio!
Hi VK,
Very thought provoking questions, though they look very simple on the surface. Keep rocking!
Looking forward to the comparison with your answers
Hello VK,
The Q’s sure did sandblast some rust, very interesting. Waiting for tomorrow 3:00PM
Cheers!
Like to see more quiz like this in other tools, it is interesting to take part and a kind of refresher too. Thanks VK sir.
Great initiative, helping people get refreshed! The examples gives a good reasoning for the choice of answers.
Thanks Magesh. I am trying to build up the next one soon.
IMHO, the answer to 5 should be false. The reason being – to eliminate the occurrence of Y we only need to eliminate the factors that are individually or collectively sufficient to cause Y, the rest do not matter as they might be necessary but cannot lead to the occurrence of Y.
Thus we need not focus on those factors which are necessary but individually or collectively are not sufficient to cause Y.
Hi Sid, thanks for joining in and special thanks for putting up your doubt here.
Let us consider an unusual example. A terrorist carrying a fully loaded AK 47 in a flight and then using it in the aircraft is sufficient to create panic and threat to lives of passengers. So, it is good that the Airport Security folks have started screening each passenger for Metallic Arms and Ammunition. Is it necessary to carry a gun or a metallic device on an aircraft to create terror? Unfortunately not! Someone may carry liquid explosives. Our security brethren now have to look for liquid and other forms of terror inducing material. Anything or group of things that is/are “necessary and sufficient” for creation of terror needs to be considered. Hope this helps.
Hi there, I think I mis-interpreted your question. When you say “necessary as well sufficient factors” you mean the same factors which are both necessary and sufficient. I assumed that you are talking about two different sets of factors – (1) which are necessary and (2) which are sufficient and obviously this is an overlapping set.
In any case, query solved. Thanks for your input.
Good to see your comment. I appreciate your ability to analyze this deeply.
Twister Game, beating around the bush differently. Interesting questions. After the quiz round…i would like if you can share the same with some example story like the one you have shared for VA/NVA….so that i can share this with my team to make them understand easily.
Hello Mr. VK
Concept renewal process for me. By going through your questionnaire i doubt whether the two (Why – why analysis & Fishbone) go on the same line. is it true that when we know about the problem statement we can use why-why or 4W 1H . And if we are not sure about what exactly is the problem statement , we use fishbone. ?
Hi Shweta, thanks for joining in. Why why is a sequential questioning of every cause till we reach the root and is different from 4W1H which is about understanding more about the situation. Here is another interesting story that may clarify why-why in a manner which suits your question – https://www.benchmarksixsigma.com/forum/topic/27217-a-cause-analysis-question/
Hope this helps. Cheers!
Good Refresher, Nicely put up
Interesting exercise.
One of the most serendipitous correct decisions I made in the pursuit of my engineering degree was to complete my philosophy requirement through a one quarter course in Logic.While it is part of the DNA of an engineer to think logically, there are numerous traps that that one can fall into. And the first is not subjecting the statements to rigorous analysis, but to also make appropriate diagrams as a part of the analysis. As with most processes and issues, pay attention to the fundementals.
Thanks Millard for highlighting this. My response is here – https://benchmarksixsigma.com/blog/how-to-find-if-a-data-set-is-genuine-part-2/