Legal Cheating vs. Illegal Cheating?

Anil K · 2015-12-01T06:44:46+00:00

.demo { border:1px solid #C0C0C0; border-collapse:collapse; padding:5px; } .demo th { border:1px solid #C0C0C0; padding:5px; } .demo td { border:1px solid #C0C0C0; padding:5px; } Vishwadeep Khatri Volkswagen did illegal cheating. There are others who are doing it legally. There is 50% difference in emission levels on road as compared to test conditions for some manufacturers. What are your views on legal and illegal ways of cheating? (The driving experience and fuel efficiency get degraded when emissions are kept within limits. Car makers shall probably continue to play on emission norms as compliance goes against buying criteria) Steve Borris Consultant and Author According to the TV news, the tests are followed as the rules define. It would seem the errors are with the rules. I read somewhere that parts, like seats, were removed for fuel mileage tests in some cases (to reduce the weight). If true, that is probably a legal misrepresentation, too. If no one objects, nothing will ever get done. The power lies with the customers. Steve Dr.Narasimhan S., M.S, Ph.D Yes Mr.Khatri....a cheating is a cheating...can we classify this into legal or illegal?..like good terrorism and bad terrorism..?..and I fully agree with Steve that power lies with customers...so only these corporations come up with so many intelligent ways of cheating.... Thomas Prasad Good question Vishwadeep ! All those clinically proven, doctors recommend, so and so certified, best in market, analysts suggested are different side of the same story. Why naturally we get oriented to these words; there is something about the product or service that needs a different story telling for it to be sold. Have you ever wondered .....exclude last 50 to75 yrs we did not find these statements for buying gold, silver or any perishable good like food and other necessities. In today's world all these belong to the category of making money by what ever it takes. Manu Kumar Yes, We all should follow Norms, which is meant for goodness of Society and environment. Norms are not made of individual benefits. Cheating really hurts when it is harming the humanity or nature. Yes, we humans always strive for development but the outcome contains both good and bad things,, we should accept and follow good and minimize the bad things which may arm the society. Ravi Vaidiswaran Company has created the trust of the customers. There is no question of legal or illegal. Kiran Varri Cheating in either form is Unacceptable !! Let's keep #HumanGood above all !! Himanshu Rathore business needs to be sustainable above all. ..d emission levels can be measured and a carbon tax can be levied on manufacturers fr exceeding the limit.for eg :car A has higher emissions than that of B...so A should be made dearer than B in the market. ..That would rein in the manufacturers.Trust or CSR can't hold on for too long unless it is directly linked to the profits..which is why we do business, right! Vishwadeep Khatri Hi Himanshu, I do not think Volkswagen was fighting a sustainability battle. It was a blatant cheating effort to gain global market leadership. Rohit Sharma I don't think there is anything called "legal cheating". This is where ethics of the board and corporate social responsibility comes into play. Naresh Sharma They are not the first one for whom Greed overtook their desire to sustain a Business. Only future will tell us how they will come out of their shoddy practices... Vishwadeep Khatri Thanks all for sharing views. Legal Cheating - Making sure that no laws are broken while the intent of the legal requirement is flouted for business advantage. Example - Mileage reported as higher - This is being done by many vehicle manufacturers using subtle methods that ensure that performance is far better in test conditions (which gets reported) as compared to on-road performance (which never gets reported). Illegal Cheating - Circumventing a legal requirement with conscious intent and using methods that can be proved to be against law. Example - Software usage to switch off emission control mechanism during testing. Vishwadeep Khatri I like Rohit's comment above where he says ethics and CSR should come into play to ensure that cheating of either kind does not happen. Vishwadeep Khatri There is another angle to this - If you ask the customers what will they prefer - A car that is easy to maneuver, high on fuel efficiency, and more convenient OR a car that does not pollute, what do you think they will say? If most customers prefer the former option, an organization may decide to delight these customers while ignoring long-term human good/ ethics. Today after the news, if Volkswagen sales continues to grow, and customers (even after being fully aware of the cheating) do not bother to check if the emission control is tampered, is it partly the fault of customers or do you blame the company squarely for it? Vinothkumar C Legal Cheating will always be present due to the presence of Stock Market and quarterly results. This is where CAVEAT EMPTOR (Customers Beware) comes into picture.... Illegal Cheating is beyond the limit. Playing with big risk. Just one incident dropped Volkswagen from 2 to 4. Recovering this would be big task... Steve Borris Consultant and Author I think we sometimes tend to forget that the purpose of business is making a profit. Whether we like it or not, that is the way it is. For example, countries set their own tax laws, which leads some to set up in those with the lowest tax rates. What this can mean is that companies in one country can pay less tax by (as I understand it) having headquarters in another. This, being the case, we need to ask if the company, by obeying the laws in the countries in which they operate, are doing something wrong? I kind of think not. This creates the debate on "tax avoidance" verses "tax evasion". Only one is is illegal but we can debate if they both are, or are not, acceptable - and yet most of the public have no idea that it is even happening unless someone else highlights it as an issue. So, can we have the same situation in production? Of course we can. The manufacturer is obeying the letter of the law, is he not? But, as a customer, are MY needs being met? In lean, we recognize the need to provide customer value. So, if we promise "x" but provide something different "in normal use conditions" are we meeting the customer's values? The doubt has been raised and then the question has to become: who can we trust - legal or not? Trust has now become a major issue. How does the consumer know if anything he buys is represented by the specifications in "real" use or a lab - and what the difference is, if any? Can he ask the salesman is there are any special steps taken to optimize results? Would the salesman even know? It will be interesting to see if we adopt an attitude of appeasement ---- (...if one does it they probably all do...) and carry on as normal. Or, just maybe, the regulations will be changed to reflect (what I, and probably most folk would see as) the "spirit" of the laws. Steve Manish Sehgal I agree that main motive of doing business is profit. No business can survive without making money but trust is also important for business sustainability in long run. Cheating whether legal or illegal breaks the consumer trust whenever it is discovered. This causes a huge dent in brand value and it takes a very long time to recover the same. The cost associated with dent in brand value is huge and can wipe off all the money made in terms of profit. It is time for consumers to wake up and make these companies realize the importance of business ethics. Donald Kerr I wish cheating had bigger longer ranging repercussions but some industries (e.g. cigarette manufacturers) or others (Goldman Sachs designing products to fail to recoup money on "insurance") seem to prove that people's memories are short. Steve Borris Consultant and Author Donald Legally, cheats that get caught will face changes. But people have short memories for a lot of things - particularly politics. Maybe social media will act as a reminder. Steve Shamik Kumar interesting discussion, no doubt that business is for making profit but there is something called corporate ethics ....I also understand customers expectation is top priority(lean, ...) but then customer is not always aware of repercussion of its expectation, e.g. in pharma people don't always like bitter taste of medicines but then it doesn't mean manufacturer will start adding sugar to meet the customer requirement and making it tasty and this is where regulatory/ statutory/ legal bodies come in picture to ensure customer is safe, even if it is not aware. In case of VW the impact is not direct rather indirect and that's unfortunate we tend to ignore the most important aspect of our survival i.e. environment. Peter Martin It would probably be more of an issue if it was only VW doing the cheating. In reality it is only VW that has been caught. I suspect all the main manufacturers are cheating in one way or another. All manufacturers quote very similar emission and fuel consumption figures for similar cars so if one is cheating to achieve this then most likely they all are. Just unfortunate that VW was the first to get caught. This is a perfect example how possibly unrealistic targets can drive the wrong kind of behavior which is something we all see everyday in the workplace. Targets and incentives can work well but can also cause a whole host of unintended consequences. Malcolm Campbell Ethics sits above the law but only the law can be enforced. (unless there is massive social re-vault) As corporate pressures are sometimes stronger than an individual's good will, the intent of the law will never be any better than the letter of the law. Unless we invent an entirely new legal system Bernard Brinkley Well said, Malcolm. Vishwadeep Khatri "Intent of the law will not be any better than the letter of the law" - Terrific quote, Malcolm. You mean to say that intention element of the law that does not have teeth is worthless. "Corporate pressures are stronger many times stronger than individual goodwill" To summarize our discussion so far - Corporate pressures can lead to cheating and cheats who get caught have to pay/ change. Cheating is widespread and will most likely continue unless social forces group themselves against it. Legal and illegal are just terms - smart companies will make cheating look legal. It does not seem that society is likely to stand up in a massive campaign against such an issue. Does this mean companies that do not resolve to cheating will fall back in the numbers game sooner or later? Are we trying to say that the pathway that lead to top positions in competitive business inevitably move through the lanes of cheating? Malcolm Campbell Thank you Vishwadeep. Please send royalties for the use of the quote to..... I think the risk is exactly as you say. Corporations tread a fine line to win business. What is over the line for some is not for others. Those that do not consider it over the line (or do not care) will gain a competitive advantage unless a court stops them.... Sadly this sounds like a need for more regulation. How do cultures that do not value the written word so dearly manage this type of issue? Sunderesh Udayashankar The issue is also about legality along with morality. There could be many circumstances where something is not legally violating, however, morally it could be devastating. so companies have to stand up to their ethics and business conduct and demonstrate that they are morally binding rather than being legally correct. Sujan Chakraborty I do agree with Sundaresh. It actually comes down to Ethics... which can be defined many ways but I think it is "Obedience to the Unenforceable" in this context. However it wouldn't be out of place to ask, is the "Value" well defined? What matters to customer is what happens on road, not at test conditions. Hence, should there be a legal mandate for companies to declare a max. level of emission on road? Akarsh B N - PMP®, PMI-RMP®, RABQSA CSSBB hello. I have not come across anything called legal cheating. it can only be called innovation if organizations play with loopholes of the legal framework. however, in the case of VW, it is more of going against the regulations intentionally, than bending it and also charging customers a premium for it without the customers' knowledge. Business at the cost of ethics (knowing that they are cheating but keeping quiet about it) is very dangerous in the long term - for the trust, brand name and business itself. Finally, it is also political in the sense that this report was apparently out in public domain more than a year ago but is being raked up now in the wake of upcoming elections in the US. Beverly Daniels As Sujan alludes to, the dilemma we face can often be in how we enforce the 'law'. For emissions - or any test for that matter - we must remember that usually only one vehicle is tested. Or at the most a very small sample size. So we are really only getting a single value; as all quality professionals know a single unit cannot explain the total variation in the population. Are these randomly selected units? Or specially selected and submitted to the testing agency? who decides this? And how is the test conducted? under what conditions? Certainly it isn't conducted across the full range of use conditions...The test is usually highly specified and so the test itself accounts for the difference between the published test results and what the driving universe experiences. Hence the phrase, "you're mileage may vary"... is this 'legal cheating'? Well the automakers could very well take advantage of the test method. As much as we are going to be the victims of the test method's inability to cover the full range of variation in any given design. As always these things are far more complicated than they first appear.

December 1, 201510 yr

Quote

We had a recent discussion on this topic. All forum members are invited to continue this discussion here.

	Vishwadeep Khatri Volkswagen did illegal cheating. There are others who are doing it legally. There is 50% difference in emission levels on road as compared to test conditions for some manufacturers. What are your views on legal and illegal ways of cheating? (The driving experience and fuel efficiency get degraded when emissions are kept within limits. Car makers shall probably continue to play on emission norms as compliance goes against buying criteria)
	Steve Borris Consultant and Author According to the TV news, the tests are followed as the rules define. It would seem the errors are with the rules. I read somewhere that parts, like seats, were removed for fuel mileage tests in some cases (to reduce the weight). If true, that is probably a legal misrepresentation, too. If no one objects, nothing will ever get done. The power lies with the customers. Steve
	Dr.Narasimhan S., M.S, Ph.D Yes Mr.Khatri....a cheating is a cheating...can we classify this into legal or illegal?..like good terrorism and bad terrorism..?..and I fully agree with Steve that power lies with customers...so only these corporations come up with so many intelligent ways of cheating....
	Thomas Prasad Good question Vishwadeep ! All those clinically proven, doctors recommend, so and so certified, best in market, analysts suggested are different side of the same story. Why naturally we get oriented to these words; there is something about the product or service that needs a different story telling for it to be sold. Have you ever wondered .....exclude last 50 to75 yrs we did not find these statements for buying gold, silver or any perishable good like food and other necessities. In today's world all these belong to the category of making money by what ever it takes.
	Manu Kumar Yes, We all should follow Norms, which is meant for goodness of Society and environment. Norms are not made of individual benefits. Cheating really hurts when it is harming the humanity or nature. Yes, we humans always strive for development but the outcome contains both good and bad things,, we should accept and follow good and minimize the bad things which may arm the society.
	Ravi Vaidiswaran Company has created the trust of the customers. There is no question of legal or illegal.
	Kiran Varri Cheating in either form is Unacceptable !! Let's keep #HumanGood above all !!
	Himanshu Rathore business needs to be sustainable above all. ..d emission levels can be measured and a carbon tax can be levied on manufacturers fr exceeding the limit.for eg :car A has higher emissions than that of B...so A should be made dearer than B in the market. ..That would rein in the manufacturers.Trust or CSR can't hold on for too long unless it is directly linked to the profits..which is why we do business, right!
	Vishwadeep Khatri Hi Himanshu, I do not think Volkswagen was fighting a sustainability battle. It was a blatant cheating effort to gain global market leadership.
	Rohit Sharma I don't think there is anything called "legal cheating". This is where ethics of the board and corporate social responsibility comes into play.
	Naresh Sharma They are not the first one for whom Greed overtook their desire to sustain a Business. Only future will tell us how they will come out of their shoddy practices...
	Vishwadeep Khatri Thanks all for sharing views. Legal Cheating - Making sure that no laws are broken while the intent of the legal requirement is flouted for business advantage. Example - Mileage reported as higher - This is being done by many vehicle manufacturers using subtle methods that ensure that performance is far better in test conditions (which gets reported) as compared to on-road performance (which never gets reported). Illegal Cheating - Circumventing a legal requirement with conscious intent and using methods that can be proved to be against law. Example - Software usage to switch off emission control mechanism during testing.
	Vishwadeep Khatri I like Rohit's comment above where he says ethics and CSR should come into play to ensure that cheating of either kind does not happen.
	Vishwadeep Khatri There is another angle to this - If you ask the customers what will they prefer - A car that is easy to maneuver, high on fuel efficiency, and more convenient OR a car that does not pollute, what do you think they will say? If most customers prefer the former option, an organization may decide to delight these customers while ignoring long-term human good/ ethics. Today after the news, if Volkswagen sales continues to grow, and customers (even after being fully aware of the cheating) do not bother to check if the emission control is tampered, is it partly the fault of customers or do you blame the company squarely for it?
	Vinothkumar C Legal Cheating will always be present due to the presence of Stock Market and quarterly results. This is where CAVEAT EMPTOR (Customers Beware) comes into picture.... Illegal Cheating is beyond the limit. Playing with big risk. Just one incident dropped Volkswagen from 2 to 4. Recovering this would be big task...
	Steve Borris Consultant and Author I think we sometimes tend to forget that the purpose of business is making a profit. Whether we like it or not, that is the way it is. For example, countries set their own tax laws, which leads some to set up in those with the lowest tax rates. What this can mean is that companies in one country can pay less tax by (as I understand it) having headquarters in another. This, being the case, we need to ask if the company, by obeying the laws in the countries in which they operate, are doing something wrong? I kind of think not. This creates the debate on "tax avoidance" verses "tax evasion". Only one is is illegal but we can debate if they both are, or are not, acceptable - and yet most of the public have no idea that it is even happening unless someone else highlights it as an issue. So, can we have the same situation in production? Of course we can. The manufacturer is obeying the letter of the law, is he not? But, as a customer, are MY needs being met? In lean, we recognize the need to provide customer value. So, if we promise "x" but provide something different "in normal use conditions" are we meeting the customer's values? The doubt has been raised and then the question has to become: who can we trust - legal or not? Trust has now become a major issue. How does the consumer know if anything he buys is represented by the specifications in "real" use or a lab - and what the difference is, if any? Can he ask the salesman is there are any special steps taken to optimize results? Would the salesman even know? It will be interesting to see if we adopt an attitude of appeasement ---- (...if one does it they probably all do...) and carry on as normal. Or, just maybe, the regulations will be changed to reflect (what I, and probably most folk would see as) the "spirit" of the laws. Steve
	Manish Sehgal I agree that main motive of doing business is profit. No business can survive without making money but trust is also important for business sustainability in long run. Cheating whether legal or illegal breaks the consumer trust whenever it is discovered. This causes a huge dent in brand value and it takes a very long time to recover the same. The cost associated with dent in brand value is huge and can wipe off all the money made in terms of profit. It is time for consumers to wake up and make these companies realize the importance of business ethics.
	Donald Kerr I wish cheating had bigger longer ranging repercussions but some industries (e.g. cigarette manufacturers) or others (Goldman Sachs designing products to fail to recoup money on "insurance") seem to prove that people's memories are short.
	Steve Borris Consultant and Author Donald Legally, cheats that get caught will face changes. But people have short memories for a lot of things - particularly politics. Maybe social media will act as a reminder. Steve
	Shamik Kumar interesting discussion, no doubt that business is for making profit but there is something called corporate ethics ....I also understand customers expectation is top priority(lean, ...) but then customer is not always aware of repercussion of its expectation, e.g. in pharma people don't always like bitter taste of medicines but then it doesn't mean manufacturer will start adding sugar to meet the customer requirement and making it tasty and this is where regulatory/ statutory/ legal bodies come in picture to ensure customer is safe, even if it is not aware. In case of VW the impact is not direct rather indirect and that's unfortunate we tend to ignore the most important aspect of our survival i.e. environment.
	Peter Martin It would probably be more of an issue if it was only VW doing the cheating. In reality it is only VW that has been caught. I suspect all the main manufacturers are cheating in one way or another. All manufacturers quote very similar emission and fuel consumption figures for similar cars so if one is cheating to achieve this then most likely they all are. Just unfortunate that VW was the first to get caught. This is a perfect example how possibly unrealistic targets can drive the wrong kind of behavior which is something we all see everyday in the workplace. Targets and incentives can work well but can also cause a whole host of unintended consequences.
	Malcolm Campbell Ethics sits above the law but only the law can be enforced. (unless there is massive social re-vault) As corporate pressures are sometimes stronger than an individual's good will, the intent of the law will never be any better than the letter of the law. Unless we invent an entirely new legal system
	Bernard Brinkley Well said, Malcolm.
	Vishwadeep Khatri "Intent of the law will not be any better than the letter of the law" - Terrific quote, Malcolm. You mean to say that intention element of the law that does not have teeth is worthless. "Corporate pressures are stronger many times stronger than individual goodwill" To summarize our discussion so far - Corporate pressures can lead to cheating and cheats who get caught have to pay/ change. Cheating is widespread and will most likely continue unless social forces group themselves against it. Legal and illegal are just terms - smart companies will make cheating look legal. It does not seem that society is likely to stand up in a massive campaign against such an issue. Does this mean companies that do not resolve to cheating will fall back in the numbers game sooner or later? Are we trying to say that the pathway that lead to top positions in competitive business inevitably move through the lanes of cheating?
	Malcolm Campbell Thank you Vishwadeep. Please send royalties for the use of the quote to..... I think the risk is exactly as you say. Corporations tread a fine line to win business. What is over the line for some is not for others. Those that do not consider it over the line (or do not care) will gain a competitive advantage unless a court stops them.... Sadly this sounds like a need for more regulation. How do cultures that do not value the written word so dearly manage this type of issue?
	Sunderesh Udayashankar The issue is also about legality along with morality. There could be many circumstances where something is not legally violating, however, morally it could be devastating. so companies have to stand up to their ethics and business conduct and demonstrate that they are morally binding rather than being legally correct.
	Sujan Chakraborty I do agree with Sundaresh. It actually comes down to Ethics... which can be defined many ways but I think it is "Obedience to the Unenforceable" in this context. However it wouldn't be out of place to ask, is the "Value" well defined? What matters to customer is what happens on road, not at test conditions. Hence, should there be a legal mandate for companies to declare a max. level of emission on road?
	Akarsh B N - PMP®, PMI-RMP®, RABQSA CSSBB hello. I have not come across anything called legal cheating. it can only be called innovation if organizations play with loopholes of the legal framework. however, in the case of VW, it is more of going against the regulations intentionally, than bending it and also charging customers a premium for it without the customers' knowledge. Business at the cost of ethics (knowing that they are cheating but keeping quiet about it) is very dangerous in the long term - for the trust, brand name and business itself. Finally, it is also political in the sense that this report was apparently out in public domain more than a year ago but is being raked up now in the wake of upcoming elections in the US.
	Beverly Daniels As Sujan alludes to, the dilemma we face can often be in how we enforce the 'law'. For emissions - or any test for that matter - we must remember that usually only one vehicle is tested. Or at the most a very small sample size. So we are really only getting a single value; as all quality professionals know a single unit cannot explain the total variation in the population. Are these randomly selected units? Or specially selected and submitted to the testing agency? who decides this? And how is the test conducted? under what conditions? Certainly it isn't conducted across the full range of use conditions...The test is usually highly specified and so the test itself accounts for the difference between the published test results and what the driving universe experiences. Hence the phrase, "you're mileage may vary"... is this 'legal cheating'? Well the automakers could very well take advantage of the test method. As much as we are going to be the victims of the test method's inability to cover the full range of variation in any given design. As always these things are far more complicated than they first appear.